Fairy Tale Flip – Ep 4: Rumpelstiltskin
Is Rumpelstiltskin morally good or is he evil? Why does he want the queen’s baby? What does nature and the natural world have to do this fairy tale? If you have ever read a fairy tale and wondered if there was a hidden meaning, if it had a message you just weren’t catching, this is the podcast for you. Fairy Tale Flip is a monthly collaboration between Doorways to Leaning and Fabric of Folklore to bring you a unique exploration of a different fairy tale each month. Each month, we have YOU, the audience, CHOOSE between three fairy tales, and this month for EPISODE 4 you choose Rumpelstiltskin. in this live episode we discussed the power of a name, the power of three, the history and the different versions found across the globe. This is such a fun episode, you wont want to miss it!
Notes:
- Some interpretations of him as a representation of nature
- Rumpelstiltskin is one of the oldest narratives in Western literature
- There are different versions of the story all across the globe
- Discussion about storytelling techniques and engaging children
- Power of names and personalization
- Pattern of three in the story
- What Rumpelstiltskin actually means
Mentioned in the Episode:
Name of the Wind
Wizard of Earthsea
How to Fracture a Fairy Tale
Emma Wilby
Diane Stanley
Follow us:
Fabric of Folklore website
Vanessa R
Yeah, let’s do the introduction. Okay. So welcome. Welcome to fairy Tale Flip. I’m Vanessa y. Rogers from fabric of folklore. And this is Donna Lee Fields. She is a podcast, doorways to learning and also a website. Scaffolding magic, is that right?
02:59
Donna L
Scaffolding magic? That’s right. Yes.
03:00
Vanessa R
Scaffolding magic. And we are collaborating. Our two podcasts have come together to do a monthly session where we talk about fairy tales, because we’re both very passionate about fairy tales. And one of the reasons that I was drawn to folktales in the first place is because we love them as a society as a whole. People love fairy tales. We tell them over and over. We do lots of retellings, but a lot of times we don’t even know what they mean. We don’t know where they came from. We don’t know what the context is. And so I really wanted to understand better why we continuously tell these fairy tales and why they have lasted for so long. What is it about these stories that grab hold of our attention? What is it about fairy tales that you love, Donna?
03:57
Donna L
Well, there’s so much. I mean, first of all, I can just sort of lose myself in it, but then there are the meanings underneath it. I mean, there are universal struggles that we sort of relate to. We just sort of breathe them in. We learn about different societies. There’s multiculturalism if we read fairy tales from different worlds. And it’s really about just sort of considering genders. We learn so much from fairy tales about genders, about power, about values, and we just sort of drink it in. It’s not really blatant. So those are some of the reasons I love it.
04:33
Vanessa R
Yeah. And I love that we’re doing Rumpelstiltskin because this one is one that all around the world is well known. It has different names all around the world, but it’s one that has really permeated not just our culture, but other cultures as well, across Europe. And there’s evidence that it came from Greece, ancient Greece as well. So I love that we’re doing Rufflesilsk, and I think this one in particular has such a rich history.
05:11
Donna L
Yeah, I love it because we spoke really briefly about what were both analyzing, what were both researching about it, and I was looking at it from sort of a spiritual perspective, and you really went deep into the history and the different versions. And it’s actually what I used to do, what I usually do. And so I love that you have all the different versions and that it goes back so far away. And then when we talk about the other meanings of the Grimm’s version, you always have a lot of insight. So it’s going to be really interesting discussion.
05:44
Vanessa R
Yeah. So I’ll go ahead and do a summary of Rumpelskin just to jog people’s memory, because it might be a long time since you’ve read it yourself, especially if you hadn’t watched the YouTube video of me reading it to my children. So there is a man who is a miller, and he has a daughter, and he tells the king at some point, I can’t remember why, but he tells the king that his daughter can spin straw into gold. And so the king is awestruck. And he’s like, well, she has to do it for me. And so the Miller basically sells his daughter to the king, and the king puts her in a room full of. Is it straw or was it flax?
06:36
Donna L
It’s straw. Okay.
06:38
Vanessa R
Yes, a straw. And tells her, you have to have this completed by tomorrow or you’re basically dead. And so she’s crying because she obviously has no idea how to spin straw into gold. And this little man appears magically in her room and says, well, I can spin all this straw into gold. And he says, what will you give me? And so she gives him a piece of jewelry. I believe she gives him her ring. And so he does it, and she’s relieved and so happy. And the king is extremely happy because he has all this gold that he didn’t have before. And so then he does it again. He puts her in another room, and it’s a larger room with even more straw. And she, once again, doesn’t know what to do.
07:27
Vanessa R
But the little man appears again in her room, and he says, I can do it again. What will you give me? And so I believe she gives him a necklace. And so he turns it all into gold. And everybody’s happy, especially the king. The king is even greedier. And he puts her in the room, even larger room, and it says, if you spin all of this into gold, I will make you my wife. Otherwise, you’re dead. She’s crying. And this little man appears one more time, but she has given him all her jewelry. She has nothing to give him in exchange for his labor. And so what he tells her is that when she marries the king, her firstborn child, he will take, which is really an impossible choice, right? Because she has really no other options.
08:22
Vanessa R
Either she dies or she offers up her firstborn child. And so she agrees, and everyone is happy until a year later, when the miller’s daughter is now the queen, and she has given birth to her firstborn child. And this little man reappears and says, okay, give me your child. And she begs him. She loves her child, so she, of course, does not want to give this little man her child. And so she says, please don’t take my child. And so he offers a deal. He says, I will give you three days to guess my name. And if you guess my name, then you can keep your child. And so for three days, she comes up with lists and lists of names, and none of them are right.
09:17
Vanessa R
But on the second night, a guard, a messenger, goes into the woods and hears Rumpelstilskin dancing around a fire and saying a little rhyme about. And he includes his name. The queen will never guess my name. I am Rumpelstilskin. I don’t remember the poem, but anyways. And so she is able to get out of the deal, and he is so angry that she guesses his name that he splits in two. I believe that’s the version of the grim fairy tale. I think there’s another one where he falls through the floor. There’s different versions, but the one I believe I read, he splits in two and he dies. And so that is the end of the story. And it’s quite hard. There’s so many really interesting things about it because it’s really hard to tell. Is Rumpel Stillskin evil? Is he good? What?
10:09
Vanessa R
Is he on the moral scale? Right. And there’s just a lot of things that you can pick apart about this. Are the men in this story evil? Where do you fall on? Let’s see what comes up for you.
10:33
Donna L
I mean, we have three main characters. The miller isn’t really a main character. We have the king, the girl, and Rumpel Stilskin. And when I first reread it, when we decided this is the one were going to do, I thought, oh, my goodness, Vanessa, this is just a horrible little story. I hope we don’t pick this one. In the end, we did. And when I was dissecting it, I thought, Rumpel Stillskin actually is a really fascinating character. If we look at what he’s doing, we could say, and you tell me what you think about this. Some people think of him as representation of Mother Nature. Why? Because he actually takes straw and turns it into gold. Both of them have natural elements, but what happens is he is taking something from nature, and he wants something in return.
11:23
Donna L
So it’s always, I will do this for you, but I want something back. So in that period of time, farmers were very conscious of taking from nature and giving back to nature. So how does that resonate with you?
11:39
Vanessa R
Yeah, I came across something very similar, that the straw represented something that could be turned into a harvest, and so that it was representation of spinning into a good harvest. So I think that is an accurate portrayal. When you were discussing how I was doing the research in the beginning that I was so struck at with my research was how old Rumpel Stillskin is. This is one of the earliest known narratives in western literature. It is, according to Durham University and Nova University de Lisbon. They did a study, and they estimated Rumpelstelskin to be about 4000 years old, which, to give you perspective, Homer, that’s 1000 years older than the odyssey and the Iliad that Homer wrote. And it’s comparable to Gilgamesh, which is widely regarded as one of the oldest epics.
12:43
Vanessa R
So it was found referenced in Dionysus of heliconarsis, one of his books. He was a greek historian from the first century CE. So it is an incredibly old story, which I think is really fascinating that this story has been around for that long.
13:04
Donna L
I think it’s really fascinating also. And I’m wondering if you know of any of the really major differences, because when storytellers rewrite or respeaak a fairy tale, they’re transforming, forming values from their time and their culture into the story. And so I’m wondering if you have any specifics of the different versions.
13:28
Vanessa R
Well, I came across. So there are lots of different versions. So these are the different ones. I don’t know if people are familiar. There is one in Scotland called whoopity story. There is one from Iceland called Guildrut. There is one in Arabic that is called he who talks too much. There’s one from Russia that translates to Junker. There’s one from South America. And my spanish pronunciation is not very good. Ruido. Cuido means little noise.
14:04
Donna L
Right?
14:04
Vanessa R
And so those are different versions from around the globe. But the one that people are probably most familiar with, the other version, there was a pretty famous version in England, and it was called Tom Tit. And it’s written in a sulfur. It’s spoken in a sulfic accent, which is very strong. And so people write it out with the accent. So it’s a little bit hard to understand. You have to pay really close attention. But it’s different in that there’s a mom involved rather than a father, and there’s pies involved, and the daughter eats all of her pies. And the mom is really angry. And the king comes by, and she kind of makes up a story to kind of get out of why she’s mad at her does.
15:03
Vanessa R
She’s not trying, unlike the Rumpelstilton story that we’re familiar with that were talking about, she’s not trying to pass off her daughter to the king. She’s just telling a story to explain why she was kind of throwing a little temper tantrum and ends up telling the king that her daughter has these magical powers to spin. I don’t remember if she can spin straw into gold or not, but instead of Rumpel Silkson coming, it’s a little imp like a creature with a tail who is black, like more of a devilish like character. And so it is really interesting that one is, I think, one of the most well known ones, probably, especially in the english area. But another interesting thing that I came across in studying Rumpel Stillskin was that most of the versions, Rumpel Stillskin doesn’t ask for a child.
16:00
Vanessa R
What he wants instead is she to come with him and basically to become his wife. And so it’s more rare for him to ask for a child than it is for him to ask her to be his wife. And that, I thought especially, was quite interesting. And there was some discussion about, what do you think? Why would he even want a baby? That’s a question that always came up for me. Why does he want her baby?
16:29
Donna L
He doesn’t explain why he wants it. He doesn’t explain what he’s going to do with it. He doesn’t really give any impression that he needs it or would take care of it very well. Who knows? But it’s interesting because of the versions, as were saying, and as you’re commenting on all the different countries, as I was saying, the versions adopt the values and cultural differences, maybe images and codes of the society. And there’s a new version that I don’t know if you know about, because I just found it. It’s by Diane Stanley. And in it, I’ll just tell you really quickly, because I think you’re going to really like this. The third time, he asks for the baby, and she says, no, I’m not going to give you my baby, but I’m not going to marry the king either.
17:15
Donna L
If you spin the straw into gold, I will marry you. Which is exactly what you’re saying. Some of the versions are. But then here’s the twist. They marry, they live very peacefully out in the forest, and they have a daughter. And whenever they need money, Rumpelstilt skin spins drawn to gold and they have money. But what happens is that money looks like spun gold. And so the daughter goes into town and she becomes known for having spun gold. And the king notices. And so the king does exactly what the Grimm’s fairy tale does to the mother, quote unquote. He puts her into a room and said, spin this strand to gold. And she says, no, I won’t. But instead, I’ll give you a deal. You give me a lot of money, and I’m going to turn that money into gold.
18:01
Donna L
And what she does is give all the money to the farmers around the kingdom. They’re able to buy wheat. They have incredible harvests. They’re so thankful to the king because they think the king has given them the money, not the girl, that they sort of reign presents on him. And the king is so happy, he says, oh, my goodness, you’ve done me such a favor. Everyone loves me now. I want to marry you. And again, the twist is she says, no, I’m not going to marry you. I want to be the prime minister. And she is. She’s made the prime minister.
18:36
Vanessa R
Oh, my gosh, I love that version. And I feel like it really gets at the heart of a lot of what, the meanings behind the story. That’s really fascinating. Yeah, I like that. In her version, is Rumpel Silskin a man, or what is know, he’s a.
18:56
Donna L
Little creature, just like he is in most of the versions. So he’s a man. He’s a little man. But the girl doesn’t mind marrying him. There’s no hint of that. Why do you ask? Because in some of them, he’s not a human man. Is that what you’re thinking?
19:10
Vanessa R
Well, it’s just unclear what he is. Right. And there’s some discussion about what he even is. Is he a fairy? Is he a goblin? Is he a spirit? And one of the things that you said that you were doing research on was part of the nature element, right? Is that something that you found, that he might be a nature spirit?
19:36
Donna L
Yeah, just sort of a manifestation of nature. And if you look at this at the end, in the Grimm’s version or in a lot of the versions, when who finds out the name? We’re going to talk about the name briefly, but who finds out the name? It’s not the girl. The girl is disconnected from nature. And that’s why he keeps demanding things from her that she finally doesn’t want to give. But the person who finds out his name, and this is why it sort of compounds the fact that he’s a manifestation of nature, is the messenger who goes into the woods, and it’s peace and quiet, and it even says, the rabbit and the fox say goodnight to each other so that there’s harmony. The messenger has found Rumpels Stillskin in a very harmonious setting.
20:21
Donna L
And the messenger finds the name, and he goes back to the queen, who still is very disconnected. The king and the queen are very disconnected from nature. And so I would say that Rumpel Stillskin could be a manifestation for nature.
20:36
Vanessa R
I came across, what was her name? Emma Wilby. And she thinks that believes that fairy tales such as Rumpel Stillskin represent the idea of the familiar spirit or shamanistic helping spirit, which comes to people in times of desperation or liminal moments. So the first thing that came up in my mind was like a fairy godmother, except for he’s not necessarily pure good. He’s more like an actual fairy, where fairies are kind of nature beings, where they are both good and bad, and they are mischievous and they’re playful, and they have these dichotomies to them. And so she says in such stories, the familiar or helping spirit will either offer to aid the person or will demand they work for them. And so in the other versions, that he demands that she marry him. This is actually a common theme in stories with fairies.
21:40
Vanessa R
Not fairy tales, but stories with fairies, that fairies want humans to help them. They steal babies and they steal humans. And in part, they try and get humans to help them with their labor. Evidently, fairies sometimes have trouble procreating, so mixing human blood into the mix helps humans to procreate in a faster, I guess, or a healthier manner. And so that was one of theories that he was actually a creature of nature, a fairy, if you will, that really wanted to continue the fairy race.
22:27
Donna L
I guess it could be. And again, we wonder why he’s asking for a baby at the end, but again, he’s asking for something from her womb, which is he’s asking for a reciprocity of nature. So she doesn’t want to give it. What I see it as is he’s trying to help her connect to nature. He’s trying to help her go back into the circle of life. You want to say? I mean, we feel know the lion king we’re about to sing here. No, but he’s trying to encourage her to get back into the cycle of life and cycle of nature. And she doesn’t want to do it. She becomes more disconnected just as the king is disconnected. We could talk a little bit about the king. What do you think of the whole patriarchal perspective?
23:15
Vanessa R
Well, we see this in Jessefell, every single fairy tale. Right. And it speaks to the time period. Right. Because throughout history, in the majority of cultures, most cultures have been patriarchs. There are some exceptions to the rule, there are some matriarchal cultures, but by and large, most cultures are patriarchal. And men control women’s lives. You go from your father’s household to your husband’s household, you have absolutely zero say in your life. Right. And so we see this in all of the Grimm’s fairy tales because that was culturally accurate. Women are just there to produce children and take care of the household, and they’re really not there for much else. What was your interpretation of the king and the father, the miller?
24:14
Donna L
Well, it’s just what you’re saying. It’s very straightforward. We have to remember that the king, even today, royalty is sort of taken for granted, except for those people, and I’m raising my hand, except for those people who really don’t understand why we have them or why we don’t have them. It’s a co agreement. And this king, at this period of time, was thought of a divine savior for his people. It was thought that he was straight from the gods and so he could do whatever he wanted. And we see that he does. He really doesn’t think about anyone else’s feelings. What I will say, though, is that it becomes even more patriarchal, because at the time of the Grimms, were taking weaving from women. Weaving was the work of women, and it gave them a time to talk to each other.
25:05
Donna L
It gave them a sense of accomplishment. It was pretty laborious as well. And so it probably wasn’t all fun, but at this time, the industrial revolution was happening and literally took away the weaving, the work of the women, to a patriarchal industrial setting. And so all of a sudden, men started doing the weaving, just like in the story. The girl didn’t know how to do it, so Rumpelstiltskin did. That is kind of a statement of this turning, taking the independence, a lot of independence and independence money away from women.
25:40
Vanessa R
So I have a comment on that. But I do want to stop real quick and just tell people we want to hear your questions. So if you are listening to our discussion and something came up for you, we want to hear what you were thinking about when you read the story, what questions that you came up that we’re not necessarily answering. So make sure that if you have anything that comes up for you, we are welcoming your questions. And also, I want to take this moment just to remind you that if you’re enjoying this podcast, make sure that you hit that subscribe button so that you get your notifications, because we do this. This is a monthly fairy tale flip. So if you are enjoying this, make sure that you hit that subscribe button.
26:25
Donna L
Well done, Vanessa. Well done.
26:28
Vanessa R
I came across a quote from Jack Syipes, who was actually a guest on my show, but he is well renowned for being. He’s written, I think, 20 books about the hidden meanings behind fairy tales. And he has this interesting quote, right. A common wish was a good marriage obtained through skill at spinning through productivity and the ability to make excess wealth in equal measure, these tales reflect the fear of being bad, at spinning, at being clumsy, and the social shame that came with this. Indeed, many are the deific figures that would punish women who were slow at their spinning. As with many fairy tale figures, these women had to use cleverness and help to overcome their lack of skill.
27:19
Vanessa R
So that kind of goes to what you were saying, Donna, about the importance of spinning for women at that time period, and a fear that if they weren’t good at spinning, that they would never be able to marry or be worth anything in the eyes of the world.
27:42
Donna L
Yeah, I think that’s really interesting. It’s about self worth as well. And Laura is asking how she can speak. I’m not sure if we can give people a microphone, but Laura, can you write your question in the chat and then we can say it out loud? How would that.
27:57
Vanessa R
It’s just, it’s just comments. There’s no way for video on live like that.
28:04
Donna L
Yeah. So there’s one other thing that I wanted to say while Lauda is writing her. The, a lot of fairy tales also that we’re used to and that are most popular have happy endings. Happily ever after. And this actually, it seems like it’s happily ever after for the queen and the king because they get to keep their. Yet, and yet something happens that I feel is very indicative, as you said. In the end, Rumpel Stilskin stomps and he gets 1ft stuck in the earth or in the floor, and then he stomps and he’s trying to get that leg out and he stomps again and he actually breaks the floor. And so how I see it is he’s breaking the foundation of the palace, of the castle. And you can say then that as happily ever after it may look like it really isn’t.
28:59
Donna L
He has literally broken the foundation of their marriage and of the kingdom because they would not engage in reciprocity. They both became so greedy and so self centered that they forgot that a promise is a promise. And when you get something, you need to reciprocate. And so I found that very indicative as well.
29:21
Vanessa R
What do you and I like how in the story that you told the retelling, what was the woman’s name? Diane.
29:31
Donna L
Let me see what her last name is. Diane Stanley. Yeah.
29:36
Vanessa R
Yeah. She negotiates instead of saying that I feel for both parties. Right. Because Rumpel Stillskin. Yes. She renegs. Right. Because no one wants to give away her child, but she didn’t do any negotiation but she was also put in an impossible situation. Right. She’s either going to die or she has to agree to this. But she could had know, had the wherewithal tried to negotiate a different deal with Rumpelstiltskin. I don’t know if that would have worked. Right. We don’t know if that would have actually worked. But it seems that she was placed in this impossible situation when she doesn’t even know if she was going to have children. But yes, they reneged on her promise to him. Although the king doesn’t know. Right. The king wasn’t involved in that element.
30:34
Vanessa R
He thought that his wife was the one who was spending all the gold. So there was a deception there. Not that I blame her. Right. But they could have offered him something else. Although it’s possible that she does. I don’t know if she offers him something else to try and get out of giving him her child. I don’t remember.
31:02
Donna L
As far as I know, in the Grimms version, she doesn’t. Okay, we have two comments. We have two comments. Vanessa and Laura. You know, the Grimm’s versions are what’s not told so often now, because they are really. And we’re. Unfortunately, I always say unfortunately when I’m about to talk about Walt Disney. Unfortunately, we’re used to the Walt Disney versions, which just polishes them all out and makes them all seem very benign. But the Grimm’s version really had a lot more of society’s realities in it, and that’s why both of us were a little hesitant to talk about Rumpelstolfskin.
31:47
Vanessa R
Go ahead.
31:48
Donna L
That leads into Betty’s comment. How do you think children would respond to the story? Because some of the interpretation seems to be relevant to know, whenever you go to a children’s movie, most of it is also geared towards adults so that they’ll sit there. And so these fairy tales are told. Their storytellers are adults, and they tell them in a tone of voice so that children will engage. But the message is for both, which I think is really interesting. Betty.
32:18
Vanessa R
Good. Children’s movies are for both, right? Not all of them are for both. But I would also say that fairy tales were not necessarily intended for children back in the 18 hundreds when these were being published. Right. These stories were tales that adults were telling one another. Right. And now today in our world, we tell them to children because they’re simplistic and they’re easy to understand. And children gravitate towards them because they always end with a happy ending. Right. We always want this happy ending. And so I think that their intentionality originally was not for children. And during those time periods as well, there wasn’t a lot of coddling. Right. We coddle our children. We try and prevent them from seeing death. We try and prevent them from seeing the world burning up in flames. Right.
33:15
Vanessa R
We do all these things, and so we tell them these fairy tales that are happy. They always have a happy ending. There’s always revenge or vengeance at the end of a story. Right. But these stories weren’t necessarily intended for children to begin with. But how do you think children would respond to the story? My children like it, but there’s so much that they don’t grasp. Right. There’s so much that they don’t really understand. And so the interpretations mostly go over their heads. They just see the basics of it. Yeah, I think it’s later on that these deeper meanings come.
33:56
Donna L
But what were talking about last time was that Waldorf uses the Grim versions. And Waldorf is big on fairy tales and big on know learning through stories. And they’re questioned a lot of times. Why do you use the grim version? And they say children need to know about the realities of the world. And as you’re saying, they don’t grasp everything, but they need to at least hear it and process it as they’re young instead of just it being thrown at them when they’re older. And it’s really important what you just said, and I have forgotten that, but you’re absolutely right. When fairy tales used to be told, it was through adults with women spinning or sewing or men when they’re grinding wheat or whatever. It was a way to vent about the injustices of the world.
34:39
Donna L
And the most benign way they could do that was to make up a story about it. And hopefully none of the nobles were listening, and so they could really get down and dirty. And so what the Grimms brothers found were those authentic stories. Great thing that you remembered that.
34:58
Vanessa R
And these know, we have the grim fairy tales, but this is just one version of hundreds of different Grim. So we should clarify who the Grim brothers are because they were basically the first folklorists of that. This after books were able to be published. I’m sure people were collecting stories before that, but there was no way to widely publish books right before the advent of the press. And people just didn’t have a lot of books before that. But anyways, so they went around collecting all these stories. So the Grim brothers, these were not their stories. These were oral stories that were told around Germany, is that right? And they compiled them together into these books for people to read. And so this is just one version of hundreds of different versions that were all over, and they were changed because they were oral tellings.
36:00
Vanessa R
They always changed per the speaker and per the culture.
36:06
Donna L
Well, I think that I’m not sure if there’s any part of it that we haven’t dissected yet. Is there something that you still love to talk about? Because we’ve talked about the patriarch, we’ve talked about the know, Rumpelstilskin, perhaps manifesting nature. We’ve talked a little bit about the name. Not much. The power of names.
36:24
Vanessa R
Let’s go over that, because that is really important. Tell us what you understand about the power of.
36:36
Donna L
Know. It’s such a big topic for me that all of a sudden, I’m speechless. Ursula Liguin, I don’t know if you’re familiar with Ursula Lighin, and she had a series called the Earthsea trilogy, one of my favorite trilogies of all time.
36:48
Vanessa R
And what it’s all about is the wizard in the.
36:52
Donna L
There you go.
36:53
Vanessa R
What is it called?
36:54
Donna L
The wizard of Earth. Tree.
36:55
Vanessa R
Yep, I read that one.
36:57
Donna L
Okay. It’s an incredible trilogy, which now has, I think, six books in it. It’s not a trilogy anymore, but she couldn’t stop. And it’s all about the power of a name, and that it was very important that no one know your name, because literally saying your name means you have power over someone. And so when Rumpel Stillskin is asking for his way, I don’t know. What do you think about it, Vanessa?
37:23
Vanessa R
Okay, so the first time I came across this, I read the name of the wind, which is by Patrick Brothfuss, and he was highly influenced by the wizard of the earth Sea. Yeah. So he was highly influenced by that. And so that was the first time I had ever come across that in my personal reading. And that story is basically very similar in that concept, in that in order to perform magic, you have to know something’s true name. And in stories across the world, I’ve been listening to Jane Yoland’s how to fracture a fairy tale, and she did a version of the three waters. And in it, they come to dragons, and they’re warned not to give the dragon their true name, but it’s their mother that they’re trying to save. It’s a retelling.
38:22
Vanessa R
They’re trying to save their mother, and so they offer up their true name to the dragon in exchange for help. And I think you see this time and time again across cultures that there’s something about there’s power in someone’s name. And I feel like that is not. We see it in fantasy now, but I think we as a society and a culture have come away from that. And I don’t know if this is the same, but back in, I don’t even know. In all those historical films with british men and women who are courting one another, they always call each other by their last name, and it’s too personal to call someone by their christian name. Right. And so there is power in that. There is a personalization. If you are to use someone’s first name.
39:23
Vanessa R
In today’s world, that is just how we prefer to reference one another by our given names. But you see this over and over again, and I think that it is really fascinating, and I think we could probably do an entire episode, but I don’t personally know enough. And I think this is something that I should have someone on to talk about the power of names because there’s so much there.
39:50
Donna L
Yeah, I completely agree with you. And I think that it’s dissolved a lot recently. I don’t know how much parents think about their children’s name. I mean, in your case, your children’s name is really creative and original. And most of the people I know, they just kind of go through a list of names and pick one, which doesn’t mean that they are tuning into their child, in my opinion. Try not to judge, but it’s just sort of a fact that they’re picking the name and they’re not tuning into who the child is. So do names, are names very valuable now? I would say in western society, maybe a little less, but I think that would be really interesting to get someone on who was more researched in power.
40:35
Vanessa R
I think that would be a really fascinating conversation. One other thing that I did come across that I think is important is the pattern of three. And you see this in almost all fairy tales. You see this in Goldilocks and the three bears. You see this in what other stories? There’s almost always three sons.
40:58
Donna L
Always.
40:59
Vanessa R
Right.
41:01
Donna L
Numerology book. Go ahead, keep going.
41:05
Vanessa R
In this particular story, there are three men who basically break the miller’s daughter’s trust or ask too much of her. There are three rooms in which she’s put into, to spin, draw into gold. She’s given three days to give guesses of Rumblesilson’s name. So we see this time and time again. And this is a really important pattern across fairy tales.
41:38
Donna L
Yeah, I mean, of course, you go to Christianity and you have the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost, which actually is in a lot of other cultures, Mother Nature, by different names. They called her the Holy Ghost because Christianity became much more patriarchal. But, yeah, we have the triangle. I mean, the triangle is very sacred, and three is a number that people who are closer to nature and have more of a visceral relationship with nature are more familiar with and use much more frequently. So I’m not know. We’ve lost a lot of mysticism. We’re getting back into it, but we’ve lost it. So it’s very important that you pick that up as well.
42:20
Vanessa R
Wonderful. I am just now seeing Laura’s comment. She said, yes, I had several old fairy tales books when I grew up, that I grew up on. I shared them with my grandson, and they were shocked at how harsh and mean they were. It scared them. And I think that’s a really, I’ve been kind of careful about what stories I read my kids. And when we do, we have to talk about them because they are very harsh. And that goes back to what were saying before, that they weren’t necessarily intended for children in the first place. And children were just exposed to so much more harshness of life. They were exposed to death from such an early age because the maternal death rate during those time periods prior to modern medicine was extremely high.
43:11
Vanessa R
So many women died during childbirth, so it was just so common. People died of diseases.
43:23
Donna L
You just go to the pharmacy today and you could cure yourself. Right?
43:26
Vanessa R
Yeah.
43:27
Donna L
Before penicillin, there was a lot of, lot more frequent death.
43:30
Vanessa R
Yes. People died constantly. And so I think that life was just so much harsher than it is today. So we don’t expect our children to have this understanding of the harshness of life. And so reading these stories hearkens back to those time periods. And it is hard, I find myself hesitant to read some of these fairy tales to my children as well because the flowering tree that we talked about last time, the daughter is thrown into a boiling vat of lie. Right. Seems like a just.
44:06
Donna L
Right. That’s what her neighbors. Her neighbors say that about her.
44:10
Vanessa R
That seems just, yeah, I think that there was just so much more exposure to the harshness of life, and people just had this different expectations of what life was. And now our children expect to be entertained. Twenty four seven. And they expect cake and balloons on a near daily basis. Right?
44:39
Donna L
Yeah. Instant gratification all the time.
44:41
Vanessa R
All the time.
44:42
Donna L
That’s right. Yeah. Well, Vanessa, I think we did it. I think we have talked about Rumpel, Stillskin. There’s more to dig into. I think we need to get deeper into the name, but I think we’ve done Rumpel Stillskin. What do you.
44:57
Vanessa R
Yeah, absolutely. And anyone who watches this later, we would love to hear your comments down below on YouTube or in my Facebook group page. I’ll ask some questions there as well. That’s the fabric of folklore community group. It’s where we continue conversations, but both of us, this is going on our YouTube channel. So comment down below on the video and tell us what your thoughts are. What did you think about when you first read Rumpel Stillskin? Did you see any hidden meanings, or was it just completely like, a crazy story for you? Because that’s how I felt when I first read it. Like, why does he want her baby? Why is he trying to take her baby? That is so weird. But when you think about it in terms of what fairies wanted, there were changelings. They took babies and switched them.
45:52
Vanessa R
And that was just a common theme within stories at that time.
45:58
Donna L
And if we haven’t addressed anything, I’d love to know what we haven’t addressed because we’ll keep answering questions. We love this stuff. This fuels us.
46:07
Vanessa R
Yeah, we’re very excited.
46:10
Donna L
And also, we’re going to pick three more for next month. So if you have a know, Betty and Laura, since you’re here, if you have suggestions for next time, please give it to us. We’re very happy to know whatever ideas you have.
46:26
Vanessa R
Absolutely. We want to hear what fairy tales you want to hear from the juniper tree. Someone suggested it from a Reddit group. My husband was the one who asked for Rumpel still skin. So we are taking your suggestions.
46:40
Donna L
Hopefully your husband.
46:43
Vanessa R
Hopefully he enjoys this one.
46:44
Donna L
Right.
46:45
Vanessa R
Find the chinese story.
46:48
Donna L
I will have to do a lot if we choose that in the future, if we go back to that one, I have to do a lot more research on the culture because there’s so many cultural references in it, and I couldn’t even begin to tell you for the first. There’s a lot of astrology. There’s a lot of assumptions that, you know, different references in the story. And I think it would be wonderful for us to know that. But it’s very specific to the chinese culture and people who are used to hearing a lot of these references, the names and goddesses and all that. So that’s a great one. In the future, if we decide to.
47:27
Vanessa R
Yeah, we might revisit some of the ones that we’ve offered up and see if people re choose them. Because the juniper tree you didn’t like. Right.
47:37
Donna L
The juniper tree is pretty, you know, listen, Vanessa, I’ll go into any of, you know, there are thousands. There are hundreds of thousands of fairy tales, so we don’t have to necessarily go back and re poll the ones we’ve already done. But if we’re interested in them, why?
47:58
Vanessa R
Oh, okay. There is something. I’m looking at my notes, and there was one other thing that I didn’t mention, what Rumpelstiltskin means. Did you look into that, what Rumpelstiltskin means?
48:08
Donna L
Yeah. Some of it is just the sound, but go ahead, tell me what you found.
48:12
Vanessa R
So they think that the origin was from a children’s game, and it literally translates to a pole, like a stilt being a pole, one that provides structure that is noisy, like ratling posts and wrapping on planks. So Rumpelskin is thought to have been like a goblin of sorts that makes loud noises. And it is close to Rumpel Geist, which is a Rumpel ghost, which in our vocabulary translates to poltergeist. So Rumpelstillskin and poltergeist have very close ties in their meanings, because what is a poltergeist but a mischievous spirit that clatters and moves household objects? It derives from this ancient belief. There’s. There’s intertwining. So I found that super interesting, how they broke down what it actually means, and it’s some sort of children’s game that children will play, and that’s how the german name came about.
49:18
Donna L
Excellent. Very well said. Very well. And Laura, the girl who trout on a loaf, I am not familiar with that one. I don’t know if Anness is, but we will write that one down.
49:28
Vanessa R
I am not. No, but I’ll write it down right now, and we’ll include it next time because put that in our poll with us the whole time. Yes. Awesome. All right, well, let’s go ahead and sign off. Thank you so much, Donna, for doing this fairy tale flip with me.
49:48
Donna L
Oh, my goodness. It’s so much fun. I love it. Thank you both, Laura and Betty, thank you so much for being here. And anyone else who didn’t write any comments, the people who are just listening in. Thank you also so much. And we can’t wait to see you next month. So look out for our polls, and we are going to dive into more fairy tales in a month.
50:08
Vanessa R
Absolutely. All right, until next time, keep the fairy tales alive.
50:13
Donna L
Yeah. Bye, Vanessa.
50:16
Vanessa R
Thanks.
50:16
Donna L
Bye, Lord Betty. Bye.