Episode 24: Dr. Patrick McNamara and The Neuroscience of Religious Belief
Episode 24: Dr. Patrick McNamara and The Neuroscience of Religious Belief Did you know that religious belief and experiences have a profound effect on our brains? In this unique episode we speak with neuroscientist Patrick McNamara on how folklore affects our brains? We discuss how the brain processes and interprets religion, as well as mythology, […]
The post Episode 24: Dr. Patrick McNamara and The Neuroscience of Religious Belief appeared first on Fabric of Folklore.
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00:00:13:13 – 00:00:32:20
Unknown
Welcome, Focus Sources. Welcome. Welcome to Fabric of Folklore. I’m your host is Vanessa Rogers. And this is the podcast where we unravel the mysteries of folklore and we explore the incredible world of our own culture of other cultures. And we ask questions like, What does this folktale mean?
00:00:32:20 – 00:00:56:20
Unknown
Where did this mythology originate? How does this how did this ritual change throughout the years? But today we are DVD deviating from our normal line of inquiry. In the past, we’ve primarily had historian death apologists and others from the humanitarian field in general. Our line of questioning lies around trying to better understand the history and significance of folklore.
00:00:56:27 – 00:01:26:12
Unknown
Today, however, we’re kind of flipping that switch, if you will. We’re asking how folklore and specifically religion affects our brains and in turn, our behavior. We’re approaching folklore from a scientific viewpoint and asking how the brain processes and interprets religion, mythology, mystical experiences and the like. And we’re asking why and how do people develop relationships with supernatural agents such as God, Gods, prophets, angels, ghosts and the like?
00:01:26:19 – 00:01:57:17
Unknown
So if that sounds like a podcast that you are interested in, please subscribe right now. Our guest is Dr. Patrick McNamara. Is that how you pronounce it? McNamara. And he’s a professor of psychology at National University and Associate Professor of Neurology at Boston University of Medicine. He is the founding editor of Religion, Brain and Behavior, the flagship journal for the emergent emerging field of neuroscience, a religion.
00:01:57:20 – 00:02:25:22
Unknown
He is a co-founder, along with Professor Wesley Wildman of the Institute for Bio Cultural Study of Religion, now the Center for Mind and Culture, a nonprofit research institute dedicated to the study of the neurologic and evolutionary correlates of religious beliefs, behaviors and practices. That’s a mouthful. Thank you so much for joining us, Patrick.
00:02:25:24 – 00:02:50:29
Unknown
Well, I’m so glad that you could join us. And I. I am finding more and more that I really love the intersection between different lines of study. And I am a huge fan of TEDTalks because there’s so many different people who come and you find so many different connections that you wouldn’t know about if you didn’t hear from different areas.
00:02:51:02 – 00:04:27:17
Unknown
And so I, I just love having a scientist come on on the program because I think that you provide so much, you know, beautiful and different wisdom. Uh huh. Can you give us it? Can you give us some examples of that?
00:04:27:20 – 00:04:55:13
Unknown
Mm hmm.
00:04:55:15 – 00:06:11:17
Unknown
Mm hmm. Mm hmm. How fascinating. Well, can you. So let’s back up a little bit. I, I would love to talk about your journey, about how you got involved in this research.
00:06:11:19 – 00:06:14:27
Unknown
Mm hmm.
00:06:14:29 – 00:07:28:15
Unknown
Mm hmm.
00:07:28:18 – 00:07:56:05
Unknown
Mm hmm.
00:07:56:08 – 00:09:12:28
Unknown
Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
00:09:13:01 – 00:09:40:05
Unknown
Mm hmm.
00:09:40:07 – 00:10:08:12
Unknown
Mm hmm.
00:10:08:15 – 00:10:57:17
Unknown
Uh huh. And so were you already in the field of neuroscience when this started coming to light for you? Mm.
00:10:57:20 – 00:12:27:26
Unknown
And you talked about how you don’t feel like a lot of scientists are studying religion. Why? Why is that, do you think? Is it because they are kind of polar opposites of asking similar questions? Or what do you think? Is that because they don’t see any practical applications?
00:12:27:28 – 00:12:54:08
Unknown
Mm hmm. Yeah.
00:12:54:10 – 00:14:01:10
Unknown
And why do you think that this work is important? Why do you think that this work is important? What do you see? I don’t know. Not necessarily coming out of it, but just why is it important? Right. Yes.
00:14:01:12 – 00:14:15:28
Unknown
And do you feel that there might be any practical applications from your work?
00:14:16:01 – 00:15:09:07
Unknown
Right. Mm hmm. Oh. Uh huh. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
00:15:09:09 – 00:15:43:08
Unknown
Yeah. But. And those are things that you’re trying to discover. So on the Cognitive Neuroscience of Religious Cognition project, one of the the quotes that I found was we believe the tools of neuroscience can uniquely contribute to a better understanding of how people think about God and other supernatural agents. And then the nature and functioning of religious cognition more generally.
00:15:43:11 – 00:15:53:04
Unknown
And that’s basically what you were just expounding on, right?
00:15:53:07 – 00:16:12:13
Unknown
Mm hmm.
00:16:12:15 – 00:16:28:04
Unknown
Mm hmm.
00:16:28:06 – 00:16:41:11
Unknown
Mm hmm.
00:16:41:13 – 00:17:35:03
Unknown
Mm hmm. And can you tell us a little bit more about what you’re discovering in your research? What are some of the highlights?
00:17:35:06 – 00:18:24:17
Unknown
Mm hmm.
00:18:24:20 – 00:20:02:29
Unknown
Mm hmm. So besides psychedelic experiences, what are some other mystical states that someone might experience?
00:20:03:01 – 00:21:09:18
Unknown
Mm hmm. That’s so fascinating. So what has surprised you the most?
00:21:09:21 – 00:21:12:17
Unknown
Mm hmm.
00:21:12:19 – 00:21:27:08
Unknown
Mm hmm.
00:21:27:11 – 00:23:35:24
Unknown
Mm hmm. Mm Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Be kind to yourself and others. Mm hmm.
00:23:35:26 – 00:23:43:18
Unknown
How. How long have you been doing this research?
00:23:43:20 – 00:24:18:08
Unknown
Mm. And. And what does that project entail?
00:24:18:11 – 00:24:49:27
Unknown
Mm hmm.
00:24:49:29 – 00:25:25:29
Unknown
Mm hmm.
00:25:26:01 – 00:25:30:24
Unknown
Mm hmm.
00:25:30:26 – 00:26:18:16
Unknown
So in a lot of people’s theory revolves around religion being a security blanket. But I have read that you. Your findings are contrary to that, that idea. Can you expand a little bit about that?
00:26:18:18 – 00:28:57:29
Unknown
Mm hmm. Right. So do you mean when you see it, just confirm like I see something outside. But there is more to what I am seeing. And so that is just confirming that there is just one thing that my eyes can see. Can you explain a little bit more about what you mean by just confirm? Mm hmm.
00:28:58:02 – 00:29:34:23
Unknown
Mm hmm. Yeah. Mm.
00:29:34:25 – 00:29:46:26
Unknown
So we’re looking at maybe the quarter life crisis and the midlife crisis where these, you know, major changes are happening.
00:29:46:29 – 00:30:42:17
Unknown
Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
00:30:42:19 – 00:30:48:29
Unknown
Mm hmm.
00:30:49:02 – 00:31:01:01
Unknown
Yeah. Right. And.
00:31:01:03 – 00:31:51:16
Unknown
Mm hmm. Mm hmm. And one of the things that you have said is that self and religion are bound up together. And I think that that is partially what you are talking about. Just just now. What do you feel like are the major implications of that?
00:31:51:18 – 00:32:02:26
Unknown
Mm hmm.
00:32:02:28 – 00:32:09:06
Unknown
Mm.
00:32:09:08 – 00:32:58:11
Unknown
Mm hmm.
00:32:58:13 – 00:33:02:17
Unknown
Mm.
00:33:02:19 – 00:33:48:11
Unknown
Mm hmm. And so what what about someone who is not religious, is not part of an organized religion? What do you see with them? Is their brain different?
00:33:48:14 – 00:33:56:16
Unknown
Mm.
00:33:56:18 – 00:34:16:07
Unknown
Mm hmm.
00:34:16:10 – 00:34:50:09
Unknown
Mm hmm.
00:34:50:11 – 00:35:50:01
Unknown
Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
00:35:50:03 – 00:36:13:23
Unknown
Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
00:36:13:26 – 00:37:10:07
Unknown
Uh huh. And there seems to be a shift in our culture away from at least organized religion. I don’t know if it’s a shift away from spirituality, but it’s at least a shift away from in the United States, away from the church. Are you seeing this as well? And are you seeing people coping in other spiritual ways or what are you seeing with your sense?
00:37:10:10 – 00:38:10:17
Unknown
Mm hmm.
00:38:10:20 – 00:38:23:18
Unknown
Uh huh.
00:38:23:21 – 00:38:47:24
Unknown
And. Mm.
00:38:47:26 – 00:39:19:23
Unknown
Uh huh.
00:39:19:25 – 00:39:48:19
Unknown
What are you seeing besides you mentioned cult specifically, but what are the with the other side? What are some of the examples that you’ve seen both. Right. Right. Mm hmm.
00:39:48:22 – 00:40:07:23
Unknown
Right.
00:40:07:26 – 00:40:21:01
Unknown
Oh, I don’t. I don’t remember hearing about that, but good.
00:40:21:04 – 00:40:26:16
Unknown
What about some life affirming ones?
00:40:26:18 – 00:40:29:16
Unknown
Mm hmm.
00:40:29:18 – 00:42:31:22
Unknown
Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm. Yeah. One of the things that you have said is that one of the most interesting things about religious experience and religious cognition is it constantly promotes imaginative stimulation and other possible worlds. And why would you say that is interesting or important?
00:42:31:24 – 00:42:46:24
Unknown
Mm hmm.
00:42:46:27 – 00:43:23:25
Unknown
Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
00:43:23:27 – 00:43:37:09
Unknown
Mm hmm.
00:43:37:11 – 00:43:59:09
Unknown
Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
00:43:59:11 – 00:45:29:11
Unknown
And how is it different from stimulating your imagination through reading fiction or folktales or watching movies? Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm.
00:45:29:13 – 00:45:42:21
Unknown
Mm hmm.
00:45:42:23 – 00:46:17:08
Unknown
Mm hmm.
00:46:17:10 – 00:46:30:06
Unknown
Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
00:46:30:08 – 00:46:54:28
Unknown
Mm hmm. One of the. One of the things that you’ve, um. I found you to say was one of the main accomplishments of religious or religious laxity when it’s working well, is it gives an individual a set of tools to update the sense of self so that you have an enriched sense of self and the individual is able to live a more flourishing and thriving life?
00:46:54:29 – 00:47:03:03
Unknown
Can you talk a little bit more about that?
00:47:03:05 – 00:47:08:27
Unknown
Mm hmm.
00:47:08:29 – 00:47:19:01
Unknown
Mm hmm.
00:47:19:03 – 00:48:27:08
Unknown
Mm hmm. Yeah. Mm hmm.
00:48:27:11 – 00:48:43:18
Unknown
Mm hmm.
00:48:43:20 – 00:49:04:14
Unknown
How far? Yeah. Fascinating. And you talked I think you referenced this earlier, the dis sintering process. Can you talk a little bit more about that?
00:49:04:17 – 00:49:07:05
Unknown
Mm hmm.
00:49:07:08 – 00:50:25:26
Unknown
Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
00:50:25:29 – 00:50:39:12
Unknown
And you said that it can be powerful, yet dangerous as well.
00:50:39:14 – 00:50:48:06
Unknown
Mm hmm.
00:50:48:08 – 00:50:58:14
Unknown
Mm. Mm hmm.
00:50:58:16 – 00:51:20:15
Unknown
Mm hmm.
00:51:20:17 – 00:51:36:11
Unknown
And so these a lot of these cult leaders really understand that that process that. Mm hmm.
00:51:36:14 – 00:52:01:08
Unknown
And what conclusions have the study of? I mean, I know that you’re in the beginning stages at this point, so you might not have a lot of conclusions at this point. But what conclusions have you come to this point in the project so far?
00:52:01:11 – 00:52:05:09
Unknown
Mm hmm.
00:52:05:11 – 00:52:52:21
Unknown
Well. Mm hmm.
00:52:52:23 – 00:53:08:02
Unknown
Mm hmm. And where do you go from here? Mm hmm.
00:53:08:04 – 00:53:38:25
Unknown
Right.
00:53:38:27 – 00:54:58:09
Unknown
Mm hmm. And why? And how do people develop relationships with supernatural, such as God, gods, prophets, angels and ghosts? This is one of the the questions we we pose at the very beginning of the podcast. Why do you why do you feel that? We have throughout our history have always had these relationships with supernatural agents?
00:54:58:11 – 00:55:02:19
Unknown
Mm hmm.
00:55:02:21 – 00:57:47:27
Unknown
Mm hmm. Or what parents use at Christmas time with Santa Claus? Mm hmm. And when you say ontological, do you mean, like, their reality or. I’m not familiar with that. From. Mm hmm. And what questions are coming up for you as you’re doing this research? What what are you asking yourself? Mm hmm.
00:57:47:29 – 00:58:32:23
Unknown
Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. Mm. Yeah.
00:58:32:26 – 00:58:36:10
Unknown
Yeah.
00:58:36:13 – 00:59:08:29
Unknown
One of the papers that you wrote was called Do You Need Cognitive Neuroscience to Understand religious cognition, experience and texts? And the answer that you. That you postulate is Absolutely. Can you tell us why? Mm hmm.
00:59:09:02 – 01:00:20:01
Unknown
Right. Mm. Mm hmm.
01:00:20:03 – 01:01:15:12
Unknown
So we’ve covered a lot today. If you wanted if there was one thing that you could impart, what one piece of wisdom you could impart on our audience, what would you have them take away from today? Mm. Yeah. I mean, sometimes things that are trite are just that because they are so, so fundamentally true that people have said that over and over again, right?
01:01:15:14 – 01:02:25:19
Unknown
Mm hmm. Absolutely. And so you have two books that have just come out recently. Can you tell us what their titles are and where we can find them? So in case any of our audience wants to learn more about the dream state and neuroscience and religion.
01:02:25:21 – 01:02:32:14
Unknown
Mm hmm.
01:02:32:17 – 01:02:59:20
Unknown
And we’ll definitely put all of these links. We’ll put up the links to your books and also the project that you’ve been working on on our website, which is w w w that fabric of folklore income. And so all of that will be there and anything else that we’ve mentioned as well. And we can we can put up there any links to any of the discussion points.
01:02:59:22 – 01:03:26:11
Unknown
Well, I appreciate you coming in and giving us this really fascinating point of view. I think that you’ve given us a lot to talk to, to ponder and to think about. I feel as I’m not a scientist myself. And so there’s a lot to chew here. And so I feel like it requires a lot of repetition for me to try and get that concrete elements.
01:03:26:14 – 01:03:46:29
Unknown
But thanks so much. I really appreciate you joining us. And thank you focus Sources for going on this neuroscience journey with us today to learn more about the impact of religion on our brains, but also as humans. What surprised you the most today? What did you learn that you will share with your next door neighbor or your mom or your or your best friend?
01:03:47:01 – 01:04:15:27
Unknown
And I would I encourage you to continue the conversation on our Facebook community page. So we have a group page, we have a regular page, and then we have a group page where we ask these questions and we encourage you to ask questions and and engage with other audience members. And like I said before, all the links will be on our website, which I’ll say it again, is WW w dot fabric of folklore dot com.
01:04:16:00 – 01:04:44:16
Unknown
And you can also connect with us. We’re on social media, we’re on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and you can listen on all of the podcasting platforms. We’re basically on all the major ones. Make sure you’re subscribing so that you get all the native hate notifications so that you know, Tuesday when our new podcast is coming out, we love hearing from you when you comment on our on our YouTube channel or on our Facebook page.
01:04:44:16 – 01:05:06:02
Unknown
I really love hearing that, that you audience members are enjoying this podcast that it helps to encourage me to continue on this beautiful folklore journey. And so thanks for sticking with us and unraveling the mysteries of folklore. And until next time, keep the folk.