Welcome, welcome to Fairy Tale Flip. [music] I’m Vanessa Y. Rogers and my host is Donna Lee Fields. And once a
month we come together and we dive into a fairy tale. And this month we are
diving into one of the oldest stories, the fisherman and the jin from 1001
Arabian Nights. So this is part two of the fisherman and the gin. Vanessa and I are deep into the
conversation. Vanessa is now going to share some information about other versions of the fisherman or the gin um
that she just she’s so good at explaining and then we’re going to get into themes. So stay tuned. My goodness,
you’re going to love this. Did you look into any of the parallel versions that we have that are told in different um
regions of the world that have a similar storyline? Okay, so there’s one you
might be familiar with this one. It’s a grim story. Have you heard of the spirit in the bottle? Okay, so this it’s a very
simplified version. Um there’s a wood cutter. He sends his son off to be educated. The son comes back after years
and years and that the wood cutter is has been worked to the bone. And one day he goes out to work with his father once
he gets back from his education. And they they sit down and rest and he the son starts to hear his voice uh from
under a tree. And so he starts to dig and out of under the tree is a glass
jar. And um he releases uh he opens it up and a spirit comes out and he has to
once again trick him back into the bottle. Um because the the spirit is
going to to kill him. Um and so once again he tricks him in and then uh he
says, “I will give you a gift if you release me again.” And so he gives him a gift of a cloth on one end uh it will
heal anything and on the other end if you rub it on steel it will turn it to
silver. So it will make um anything it will make you wealthy and it will turn
you into a healer. And so Oh the grims the grims always find something similar. They’re just masters.
Yes. And I they believe that that specifically that story came from
uh the Arabian Knights version, the fisherman and the jin. So that one it seems to be a direct descendant of the
Arabian Knights version. And then Pandora’s box. Are you familiar with that story?
I love that story, Matt. We should we should look at that one sometime. Yeah. But did you know Okay, this this
kind of drives me nuts. It’s not actually Pandora’s box. It’s not a box. It’s a jar. There was a mistransation
in the 16th century. And for some reason, we can’t correct ourselves. We
can’t say, “Oh, it wasn’t Pandora’s box after all. It was Pandora’s jar.” Why
are we still saying box from one mistransation?
Well, it makes a lot of sense to me. I mean, in a jar, you usually think of a genie in a jar, and you think of um all the the wonderful things that happens
with coming out of the jar. That’s what fairy tales have led us to believe. And a box is so enclosed. A box, well, I
grew up with Pandora’s box, that that term. And so, I always think of a box as something that could hold a lot of evil,
those straight edges. A bottle doesn’t have that that sort of reference of
being so scary. Just to give our listeners who aren’t from don’t remember the story of
Pandora’s box. Um, basically Zeus is very mad at Prometheus who has stolen
fire from the gods to give to humanity. And at this point in time, humanity has
the good life. They don’t have labor. They don’t die. They don’t have sickness.
[laughter and gasps] And Zeus decides to punish humanity for in instead of
directly punishing Prometheus. And so Prometheus is being is gifted from Zeus
Pandora who is like this perfect beautiful woman and he gives Pandora a
box or a jar and he tells her not to open it. So of course put a big red
button that says do not push me in front of anybody. And what are they going to do? They’re going to push the red big red button. And so she opens the box and
out comes uh grief, labor, old age, madness, vice, anything that makes
humanity and humans life more difficult. And she slams it down. And the only
thing that is kept in the box is hope. And so it’s kind of hotly debated about
whether or not that gives humanity hope or it takes it away. What is your read
on that? I’m sorry. Should I say that question one more time? I was reading about Prometheus. So the only thing that is left in the
box that after the box has released all of this horrible horrid torrent of uh
torture on humanity, everything that makes our lives more difficult. She
closes the box and the only thing left in the box is hope. And so it’s kind of
debated about whether or not that takes hope away from us or it uh helps us to
hold on to it. And so scholars don’t seem to have a grasp on whether or not
um that is intended to be useful for humanity or another vice or or an
inability to hold on to hope. Okay? Because I was brought up to believe that the one unique part of
human beings was our um sort of our our
eternal hope that no matter what evil is happening or chaos or whatever is
happening in the world, we always have hope that things are going to turn out all right. And I truly believe that that
good is going to conquer evil. I truly believe that perhaps because of Pandora’s box, but I’ve always had the
interpretation that leaving hope in the box meant that it can’t fly out and be gone that we still have that in our, you
know, we have that in our pockets always. We could always
I like that that interpretation because I feel like maybe it’s kind of the question is the glass half full or is
the the glass half empty? And it depends on how you look at the box on if it’s
you can hold on to hope or if it’s being held from us. Uh it’s kind of a question
per the individual if they have an optimistic view of the world and
humanity or if they have a pessimistic view and that we are just damned if we
do and damned if we don’t. Right. Yeah. I won’t go there. I’m not sure if I believe in the half full or
half empty. I’m conflicted about that. But I do believe that we are good in the
core and that the good will come out in the end. And for my belief system is that the the
the most contemptable people, the most contemptable will find their way back to
love in the end. And I think that’s, you know, that’s what the fairy tales tell us, except maybe the original grim
versions which are so horrific and [snorts] we don’t we don’t read them anymore because they’re so horrific. They give us a sort of negative view on
what can happen between two beings. But I love I love Hollywood and and happy
endings. It works for me because I believe that that’s really what’s going to happen. Good is going to conquer evil
in the end. Love. Yeah. Yeah. Right. I I love that too. I mean I I I want
that in the end for all of us. And what was that Martin Luther King Jr. quote? So the the arc of the moral arc is long
but it leans towards light and love. Something along those lines. Do you remember? The ark of the moral universe is long
but it bends towards justice. Huh. Yeah. Okay. It’s had
Yeah. Um again I you know I I lived in Spain for 25 years and Spanish movies
and novels oh my god they’re so depressing. I read them all. I read so
many Spanish classics because I wanted to learn Spanish and I wanted to know some of the culture and it was just so
heavy and depressing and they’d make fun of me because I love Hollywood movie and I’m like, “Yes, I want a happy ending.”
You know, you can say, “What do you think it is about their culture that
what do you think it is about that culture that really gravitates towards a sad ending? Do they just want a a you
know a faucet so that they can release their pent up sadness?
Interesting question. I mean I know French movies also go towards the really sad side. Maybe it’s Europeans that they
like a more realistic view of it and they do make fun of Hollywood movies and I say make fun of them if you want but
those are the ones I’m going to see. I don’t need to be depressed and I don’t need to be sad. I don’t need to pay for
that. I will pay to be happier. [laughter] So, yay Hollywood ending. [gasps]
Um, [snorts] okay. So, this is something that I wanted to talk about a little bit because I was really confused. Um, so
when I told the second part of the fisherman in the jin when the king goes to the hidden city. Um, I was confused
about the four fish because they represent four different religions religions living in harmony in one
place. And so my question was, was this actually a thing? Was religious freedom
um available at during a time period? And it actually is true. So it’s not
religious freedom in the in the way that it’s written in the United States Constitution, but uh people could
practice their own faith. They could own property. They could hold government jobs, and they could run community courts. they had to pay a special tax if
they were not of the Islam the Muslim faith um in exchange for protection and exemption from military service. Uh and
so it wasn’t modern religious freedom. There was a clear hierarchy where
Muslims were definitely at the top. But compared to medieval Christianity,
Christian Europe where Jews were massacred and heretics were burned, um
the fourcolored fish representing uh different religions living together was
actually uh truthful, which I found really interesting and that it would be represented in that
story. There’s a lot of religious toler um tolerance that we don’t know about
because conflict is so much um more dreamelo dramatic and that’s what sells
newspapers and that’s what drags people into watching news. But um for 800 years
Muslims had control over the Spanish peninsula and they were incredibly tolerant of all religions and they lived
in peace for for um 800 years. And then the Christian um the Christian cong the
the church came in and basically killed everyone who wasn’t didn’t agree with the churches. They got rid of the
Muslims. They got rid of the Jews. They got rid of anyone who wasn’t part of the church. But yeah, these stories are very
true that there was incredible tolerance. And I will say even in Israel and I know this is probably pmic just to
say it before the British got involved there was incredible religious toler
cultural tolerance in Palestine in what became Israel and um
the British decided that that wasn’t u interesting enough so they pitted them against each other. Lawrence of Arabia.
The movie, that movie is about the British taking over and creating conflict between these religious um
devices. Huh. Uhhuh. Interesting. Yeah. Okay. So, did you do any research on
themes or symbolism? I’d love to hear your thoughts about any of that. Yeah, I didn’t.
[laughter and clears throat] We’ll cut this out. I didn’t because I was so involved with 101 nights. So, I
know You have any? I do. All right. So, Vanessa, one thing we
really want to we always want to talk about are themes. And I usually am the queen of themes. I love them. I love deeper meanings. And this time, I didn’t
get into it because I was so fascinated by Sherzad and and her role as being this incredibly strong woman in a soft a
seemingly soft way and and um saving a a whole generation of women essentially.
But I know that you’ve looked into a lot of themes and so I’d love to hear them and then I’ll if I if something comes to
me I’d love to make some comments on it. How’s that? Yeah. Okay. So when I was doing research into
themes I wanted to look at it from two separate lenses because I have the lens
of a westerner of an American because I grew up in this culture. Um, but the way
that someone from the Middle East would be reading it would look entirely
different, especially um, if they are coming from an a Muslim background. Um,
and even if they aren’t Muslim themselves, they are growing up in that culture. And
so there is going to be a a different types of lens. And so I kind of divided
each theme into American versus um Arabic. And so the first one I looked at
is luck versus fate and divine will. So when the fisherman is casting his his
nets and he brings in the copper jar from the ocean, a lot of times Americans
will see this as lucky coincidence. he was at the right place at the right time or fortune was smiling on him on the
deserving and that’s a lot of times how we frame things but um someone from uh
who is an Arab would see something different they would see it as divine
decree because there is there are no coincidences the jar was always going to
come up on that fourth cast because it was written now I had to kind of look into this because I didn’t really
understand the difference between fatalism and what is called kadar which
is what I said the divine decree so this is the the difference fatalism says that
the road is already built you’re just walking on it where you end up was
already decided and nothing changes based off of your choices and so your
free will doesn’t make any difference in your life so that’s the fatalistic point of view what
the khar are the divine cre says is the road is already built and your job is to
walk as well as you possibly can because God or Allah knows where you will end
up. So you act and strive and make choices to be the best that you can be.
Um and you release the outcome to God now or Allah. And that that is like a kind of a very thin line. And I see this
as well growing up um in in a Christian nation. There’s this kind of like give
and take between whether or not your free will actually has any um meaning on your life. Does
does God have absolute control or do you actually have human free will and you
make a difference based off of your choices where you end up? And it it really honestly kind of depends on the
denomination of Christianity on where you fall on that spectrum. But I think
it’s a really interesting give and take that a lot of religions struggle with and is specific to the
Muslim religion because some people really have a fatalistic viewpoint where
it doesn’t matter what you do. Um but that’s not the intended is not intended
to be that way intended that you are supposed to make good choices so that
your um life will end up the way God or Allah has intended.
Really interesting. Um I can’t speak to Muslim to Islam because I don’t know
much about it. I I did have a teacher a partner teacher who was Muslim and I
asked her questions about it but it didn’t it didn’t resonate with me. So I didn’t ask too many questions. I do know
the I mean in western society I make a very strong distinction between religion and
spirituality. And I think that some people most people believe that they’re religious and yet that religion doesn’t
isn’t integrally um spiritual. what happens. I think a lot of uh people
believe they need to go to church and be seen and that means that they’re spiritually um evolving and it doesn’t necessarily
believe that because in in many I I grew up in a Jewish family and we went to synagogue not every day but every week
at least and um it I didn’t have the experience of being encouraged to be
spiritual. There’s a big difference between learning the dogma as you were saying, learning the scriptures,
learning about the biblical characters and learning about spirituality. And I now study a whole belief system where it
is about spirituality that evolves from the Hindu religion. And in India,
spirituality is sort of it kind of um embraces most of the culture. So for
instance, I was listening to one of the monks that um practices many of the techniques that I believe in and he said
when he was growing up for instance there was one occasion where he came home and he had taken an very important
exam and in the states in western cultures if you take an exam and you do really well you go out and celebrate you
have ice cream you have a dinner you get you know your parents may give you a car or whatever you know it’s a big celebration but it has nothing to do
with spirituality. He said in his case he came home and he had this big smile on his face and the first thing his
father said to him is he said don’t tell me what the score is you go right to the altar and thank thank um the gods for
your score and that is their perspective is that that um spirituality is so much
part of their lives and so that goes to what you were talking about that um
actually when the story starts the fisherman begins his daily task by calling upon and trusting Allah to give
him Yeah. A copious copious net full of um full of
treasures. And the fact that he gets mud and a donkey and what are the what are the other things? He gets the genie
pieces and glass pieces of glass jar. Yeah. Right. It’s it doesn’t sound like it
it’s um it makes sense and but the point is that he does he asks God first and
that’s not something we are brought up to do. I don’t believe you were. I know I wasn’t.
And after every cast, even when he brings in something that is worthless and he can’t feed his family with, he
still praises Allah at the every single time. And that is often um taken out in
western tellings. I I’m I’m not including it in my telling as well because it doesn’t really connect with
us as well. So it it kind of takes us out of the story, I think. Um but that is very important for for their
storytelling. So, I’m just wondering, would it be against your belief system to include something where it shows that
the fisherman is actually calling out in a spiritual way to receive this instead of just throwing out the
No, I think it’s beautiful. I love that he does that actually. I think it’s really nice because you can you can
still um be grateful even when you feel like you don’t have as much as you want,
as much as you think you need. We always have exactly we we need. So what’s another theme that you were fascinated
by? Um okay so the cl clever versus the humble. So in American uh in American
lens we often really highlight those who have cleverness right if you think of
puss and boots he was a clever trickster. Any of the the trickster characters are very clever and they’re
able to get out of uh things using their wit. Um and so we when we read the story
the individual is the source and the owner of what happens to them. The clever individual the underdog wins by
his own ingenuity. Whereas uh in the Arabic sensibility they are the humble
vessel for Allah. So if you you are the instrument and God is the source. And I
think you actually talked a little bit about this some where does your power come from? Where does your power sourced
in the in the last one when we when we were talking about the talking eggs? Um some people feel that the the the source
of power um source comes through your body rather than it coming from your
body. It’s coming from somewhere else. And so that is kind of the I the the idea of it’s called um hikma the divine
wisdom flowing through a humble vessel and the fisherman is the humble vessel he uh he you he gets his gift from Allah
he gets his personal achievement from being open to the greater spirit and he
also has the other principle saber active p perseverance steadfastness and
the ability to push forward during hardship without complaint. And so those are two principles that are being
highlighted in the story that aren’t necessarily seen through the lens of
Western eyes. It’s the difference between what he did and who he is. So in
in the um American lens, it’s what he does and the Arabic lens, it’s uh who he
is. Very interesting because really this story is a microcosm of what’s happening
uh with a storyteller Sherrozad. It seems like a very you know a small meek
um powerless person in this whole melodrama of a king who has the support
of his entire kingdom in in being and having the right to kill her the day
after and yet she tricks him. And in the story of the fisherman and the jin, it’s this meek fisherman who has the the
power and the strength of Allah behind him because that’s who he prays to with every cast of the net. And even though
the genie comes out and seems incred, if you look at all the pictures, he seems overwhelmingly huge, this meek, tiny
little fisherman uses his cleverness, um, his wisdom to put the genie back
into the bottle. Yeah. Okay. And the third one is rags to
riches, which is very much an American viewpoint, right? Um, so it’s the
difference between being he earned it versus being worthy. So the American
dream is earned success through initiative and cleverness. Whereas um in the Arabic sensibility, the fisherman
didn’t rise because of his initiative. He was chosen because he was worthy. Uh the reward is divinely bestowed.
bestowed abundance, not payment for services. So, you cannot earn what God gives. You can only be worthy enough to
receive it. Okay. And you’re also talking about because I don’t know if we spoke enough
about the fact that the fisherman went to the sultan with the four fish and he was we he was handsomely
um rewarded for those fish. But it has to do with the rags to rich’s reward and
that the fisherman leads the sultan to a magical pond and rescues the prince. Did we talk about that or we’re we want to
Yes, I gave the the second version um after your your version. So I gave that
version, right? And so in the Islamic context, as far as I understand, wealth is viewed as
righteous. And um God gives it to you if you’re patient and you’re pious, which
we could say the fisherman was. There was a certain amount of patience in pulling up cast after cast of what
seemingly looked like um meaningless goods.
Okay. Yes. Yeah. And that was actually what I was saying with the the saber, the the principle of saber. Um, sometimes it’s
interpreted as patience, but it’s kind of a mistransation. It’s more
of the active perseverance rather than patience. So, I guess there’s a slight
distinction there. Okay. Um, being able to push forward through
hardship without complaining, which is difficult for us Americans.
Yeah, we like to complain. [laughter]
Yeah. [clears throat] I didn’t go there. All right. What’s another theme that you wanted to talk about? Okay. I wanted to talk about Jin. Um,
and I and I talked a little bit about this in the past. Um, but I did a lot of research on jin because
they’re I find them so incredibly fascinating, especially that they are actually a part of the Quran because
after I I I mentioned that I read the city of brass and so I just thought that they were a folkloric creature that it
was part of fantasy but they are actually a part of a religious text kind
of like angels. So I I’m kind of envisioning them like angels except for they’re different than angels in that
they are um they have free will whereas angels in both the Quran and the Old
Testament they cannot disobey. They exist only to worship God. And so when
gins are are made um there is this famous
jin um who rebelss against God because
once jin once he creates Adam and he creates humans, he tells the jin that
they must bow down to Adam and the a
famous jin called the las he refuses and so he falls s from grace of God. Does
that story sound familiar at all to you? Uh, yes. But can you keep going because
I want to see the con. It’s it’s almost identical to the story of Lucifer. Right. Lucifer, God does not
tell Lucifer that he has to bow down to Adam, but he does say he you have to give him respect. I don’t think that
it’s actually a a large story in the Bible. I think maybe there’s like a line
or two in the Bible, but um we make a a much bigger deal of it um than it
actually is in in text form. But that is almost identical to the story of Lucifer
falling from grace. Lucifer was an angel. He was the the light of of God.
And at some point he decides that he does not he doesn’t like humans. And so
he falls and uh becomes he’s he leaves the grace of God and in a
in um there’s a lot of debate about hell and and Satan and so somehow he becomes
Satan but I actually think that there is no biblical text that says Lucifer becomes Satan. That becomes kind of oral
oral tradition rather than written text in the Bible. Yeah, that that that goes on a long
tangent, but I really love that you were digging more into the gin. And just for our listeners purpose, I started using
DJ I N doing search for that and it came up sometimes J I N and other times
genies with G E N I E S. So any one of these, but if you do use DJ I N, you’ll
find more of the Arabic symbolism and if that’s what you want, then you’ll get a lot more information. So I just wanted
to add that as well. Yeah. Um, okay. So, they there’s lots of
different types of gin there. So, the the one in our story is an ephrit and
they are considered the seed of las who is the the one who falls from the grace
of Allah. Um, and so ephrit are malevolent. They are fire spirits and
there’s they’re associated with vengeance and destruction of and that is obviously the character in our story.
But there’s there’s others that are um they’re kind of like muses. Uh they’re
the ones who are connected to Arabic poets. Uh there are some that can shapeshift into beautiful women. There
are some that are tied to to water. So there’s all sorts of different types of jin and they because they have free will
like humans, they can choose any religion they want. So there can be Muslim gins and Christian gins and
Jewish gins and atheist gins. Um, [gasps] and so they are just as diverse
as humans and they live on a parallel plane, which again rung a bell for me
when I I read that they they they live on a parallel plane and they don’t interact with humans much uh but they
can in specific places. So they’re they’re magical beings. They’re they
live in a magical dimension. Um, so they live in a hidden world alongside humans.
And so I was like, “This sounds so much like fairies. This sounds so much like elves in Norway.”
And so when you look across traditions, there are always, almost always, there’s
a hidden world with a some sort of magical being living in some sort of
parallel universe that you may or may not be able to interact with. depending
on if you cross into the sacred space or the liinal space. And so you see this in the Islamic world as a jin. You see it
in the Celtic world as a fairy. You see it in the Norse world um with the the nine worlds and the elves. You see in
Japanese world and the spirit world. You see it in Native American tradition. Again, the spirit world is accessible
through different vision quests or sacred places in in Australia with the
Aboriginal people. This is across cultures. There are hidden realms with
other creatures. Well, I believe that I mean I believe that there are different dimensions and
this is the the the most dense dimension that exists in all of the universes. And
so all these fairies do exist. And the genies do exist. And what I love is that you’re talking about the genie energy
crossing into the human realm, into this dense 3D realm periodically. And what it
represents for me is greed. It’s um I think it’s fascinating that genies have
free will, but for humans, it usually means asking the genie for something.
And it it it also connects to me for the lottery. People buy lottery tickets. I
don’t know, Vanessa, please tell me you don’t buy lottery tickets. I have not ever bought a lottery ticket,
but I will receive anyone that anyone wants wants to send me. [laughter] I can’t answer. Okay. It just it’s the
lottery tickets are really there is a connection. It’s just sort of wanting something that you may not necessarily
need and if you get it, is it the best thing for you? We don’t hear about all the stories where people either lose all
their money once they get the lottery. they have so many psychological problems or with family problems once they get
the money that it was they they admit later that it’s it would have been better if they had never received the
money. So in other words, this this sort of um um sort of bracent um need for money for
more than we would actually need leads us down a whole trail that in the end
really is not for our benefit. So these genies for me it does represent a crossing of the of the dimensions a
crossing um the blending of different um energies that perhaps we don’t really
need that we are fine without it that we have enough resources and we’re given
enough from Allah or God or the universe whatever whatever word you use to
describe the creator. Uh, we’re given everything we need and we just need to appreciate it and don’t keep wanting.
So, you’re saying you don’t want to ever go searching for fairies. Oh, no. No. I I love fairies. Oh my
goodness. Yeah. [gasps] So, you but but you just said the opposite. We don’t need to go searching
for other dimensions and they’re they’re in another realm. Did I say that? I have to record back.
Um, what I mean [laughter] is don’t don’t ask. You can be of two minds. Sorry.
You can be of two minds. Yeah. No, no, no, but no, no, absolutely. If I said that, I need to retract it because what I mean to say is
yes, go into different dimensions. Um, find what’s the the the magic, find the
joy, find the hope, let’s say that again, in the other dimensions. But don’t go there for thinking that you
need something. We are given everything we need and we just need to reframe it and really acknowledge it. But in But
don’t look, don’t go looking for the genie because it’s probably not really what you want.
Well, most of the stories the genie seems to be very vengeful. Of course, except in the Aladdin story, right? In
our westernized version of Aladdin, the genie is hilarious and and joyful and he
is not an ephit. He is a a lovely [laughter and gasps] a lovely creature rather than
Are we talking about the Willage Smith version? Which which one are we talking about? The dis I haven’t actually seen the Will
Smith version. I was talking about the original um Okay. Disney cartoon version with Robin
Williams. A fun one. I’m not sure how Will Smith is is um portrayed these days in the States. Have we forgiven him yet?
I think he’s for I I I think so. I mean, he’s he’s asked for forgiveness, which is better than most celebrities when
they make up when they mess up. So, yeah. [laughter] I think [gasps] I think we can um
forgive and forget pretty quickly in our our society today. Good. Good. because I don’t watch the
news. I don’t live in the States. I’m in Mexico now. So, I I don’t know. But it does kind of fascinate me fascinate me.
I think he’s still banned from the Academy Awards for 10 years. I actually I don’t know remember how long ago it
was. So, maybe it was maybe just eight more years. I don’t know. But he’s banned from that that award show for
right a decade. He can survive that. Okay. I think so. I think he’ll I think he’ll
survive. I think he’ll survive. Um Okay. So I I made the distin So I’m not saying that jin are the same as
fairies or the same as elves, but I I found it very fascinating when I read
Hidden Realm. And I immediately thought of fairies and I immediately thought of
the elves in in in Norway. Um not Norway, uh Iceland, sorry, in
Iceland. Um I said Norway, but I meant Iceland. uh because there is a belief
there has been a belief for years amongst many many cultures that there are these different dimensions and so I
think it’s just really fascinating that we have different names for them and they um they have different
characteristics but they seem very similar in a lot of different ways.
Okay. [snorts] [laughter] You have thoughts. I can tell you’re you’re holding something back.
No, no, no, no. What are you holding back? I just want to make sure that nobody believes that I wouldn’t want to go
looking for fairies. I want fairies in my life. [laughter]
I don’t know that I would. I’m not going to go looking for fairies. Fairies are are trouble, man. Oh, we’re thinking of the Irish
versions, maybe. Okay. Yeah, those tricks. I’m not going looking for fairies. They’re not going to give me anything I
want. They’re going to hold me hostage. This thing. Okay.
Um, okay. So, I wanted to go into the origin of Jyn just a little bit because
I was unclear about if they if they were just as old as the Quran or how old they
were. And the belief in Jyn is is possibly the oldest supernatural being
in continuous human existence on Earth. This is just we can’t prove this because
um it’s primarily from oral tradition but it the belief in jin absolutely
predates Quran. It it predates Islam. It predates Christianity.
Um and there’s all sorts of pre-Islamic folklore with wild desert spirits that
are found that are um it a lot of times they’re like the de desert themselves. They’re a force that could kill you or
they could spare you. They don’t really seem to have moral intention. Uh sometimes these older uh civilizations
would elevate them in status. They would give them sacrifices. They would worship them like gods. Sometimes they had
companions that would act as muses. Uh they could be feared. They could be
worshiped. Um they were always found in sacred places. And so they believe that
they are as old as the belief in them or as old as 3 to 4,000 BC. They weren’t
called gins then, but the supernatural creatures that were believed in during
this time period based off of uh different writings and uh carvings into
blocks where uh inscriptions found in northwestern Arabia and physical
inscriptions in stones in Syria uh seem
to have some scholars have inferred that these supernatural beings are very
similar to what are now called jin. So once again this is all inference because
this is not based off of writing and off it was based off of oral storytelling.
Um but there is a lot of change that happens with jin when Islam becomes the
predominant language of the um area. They’re no longer allowed to be
worshiped. They have to be held accountable to God. Um they become much
more complex beings capable of choice rather than just elemental forces of
nature. And they are not just a dangerous force. They um are presented
with moral dilemmas and they have to make decisions for themselves.
Wow. Yeah. I I didn’t go into it until recently. the the origins of the jin.
But what really strikes me when you’re talking is that they were believed to be in the desert or desolate places and
they were that were not many people were invis were populated. And the more I
work with mystic groups, the more I believe that these these are energies that some people are able to see and
most of us can’t see, but we can train ourselves to see them. And so in the desert, my goodness, you um there were
these energy sources that they named genies. But if you think about it,
let’s make a connection to the burning bush, which was also smoke. That genies were always come out as smoke from the
from the bottles, the genie in the bottle. Yeah. And the burning bush was energy that was
seen by Moses as uh God speaking from the burning bush as flames. Um, really
interesting connections there. Okay, the last thing I want to talk about is symbolism. And I know that
you’re going to have lots of comments. I know you didn’t do your own research, but I’m sure you’re going to have opinions.
[laughter and gasps] Um, okay. The number four. The number four is incredibly important in the
story, but also in Islam. So in the story we see four four casts per day,
four objects pulled from the sea, four centuries of imprisonment by the jin,
four colored fish, four hills surrounding the enchanted lake, four mountains encircling the hidden world.
And so four represents um in the cosmic order, four directions, four seasons,
four rivers of paradise in the Quran, four arch angels, four sacred months. So, it’s a really important number um in
this uh region. Any thoughts on the the number four? Yes, because you’re talking about
there’s number four also 444 is usually interpreted as divine protection and support. So, he cast four nets and he he
asked Allah to bring him um success for each casting and he was given he was given his um he was given his success.
But also you you were talking about the number four a box when we were talking about Pandora’s box. A box is about four
sides and it held hope in by four sides and four has a very positive meaning in
most mystic societies. How is that? Yeah, I like it. I like it. Um okay, the
dead donkey. This is another one that is is different through the eyes of a
westerner as as opposed to someone from the Arabic world. Americans see
something gross, something bad luck, maybe comical. Um, but Arabs see it
differently because it’s wasted divine capacity, a dead potential in the world waiting to be restored. So Allah
specifically names the donkey alongside horses and mules as something he creates deliberately as a gift to humanity. But
in the same vein and the and in an opposite vein dual citiz symbolism the
harshing sound is a symbol to be avoided. So as a metaphor the dead donkey represents wasted potential a
vessel designed to carry a divine blessing that is now useless that humans
can’t use. And so it kind of describes the ephrit’s spiritual condition.
That’s great. I’m, you know, I’m not going to make any comments on that and afterwards I’m probably going to shake myself because something of will come up
about a dead donkey. But let’s go with what you just said so far. [laughter and gasps] Okay. Um, and it should have been Okay.
So, what I have to note, the fourth thing he pulls from the sea is a sealed jar containing a supernatural being who
should have become wise and instead becomes murderous. And the dead donkey is foreshadowing of that.
So that’s that’s um something interesting.
Oh, okay. The jar of mud and broken pottery. The escalating disappointments. So the sequence is a dead animal. Then
there’s the jar of mud. Then there’s broken pottery and glass. And it’s a portrait of a broken world, dead things,
corrupted vessels, shattered wholeness. And then the fourth cast is pulls up a
vessel sealed seemingly containing nothing, but this
one holds the force that will ultimately restore the broken world to wholeness, specifically the the broken world of the
hidden city. Um, and so the three failed cast, the world as it is, dead, dirty,
broken. The fourth cast is the world as God intends it.
Wow. [gasps] Okay, because I got, you know, the mud and the the mud and the putcher is
represents the genie’s agonizing 400 years of unhealed resentment living in the bottle
and foreshadowing, you know, the foreshadowing each one, as you said, is foreshadowing the danger of the genie
coming out of the bottle. The fisherman should have thought about it. Don’t touch the bottle. Yeah. [gasps and snorts]
[laughter] But it had this the the seal of Solomon, so it had to have something worthy, I guess. [laughter]
Yeah. In the end, he plus he was poor. He needed something. Yeah. No, he benefited from he needed something to feed his family.
Yeah. Okay. The last thing was the copper jar. So copper is really important here um
because it’s traditionally used in Middle Eastern folklore to contain supernatural. So he would have seen it
as something um important. And it also in Islamic alchemy and mystical
tradition uh copper and lead are base metals that can be transformed into gold
through a spiritual process. So it’s literally made of materials representing
spiritual rawness waiting for a transformation. Gorgeous. So that copper jar is important.
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. And then the last thing is the difference between the number three and four in in um western society
storytelling and um middle eastern storytelling because we do three stories
of three. Everything happens in threes. In most fairy tales we see three little
pigs, the three little bears and goldilocks. There’s three wishes. Um,
and so three in western storytelling and four in Islamic storytelling perform
exactly the same function. Each culture’s sacred number of completeness. When an Arab listener hears four, they
feel the same instinctive rightness as a western listener feels hearing three.
So many I always want to say things in threes. I always want to give three examples of things. There’s something
very mystical and magical about the number three. Y Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. But there is, you know, we do
value four as well because of the four four directions, um,
four seasons, the four questions and Passover. Yeah.
Yeah. I didn’t realize there were only four archangels. I probably should have
many archangels. I’m not sure. Maybe there are four. Yeah. Yeah. There’s so many archangels. I bought a book once on
archangels and there are many, many, many um Okay. Maybe four major ones. Which are the
ones? Archangel Michael. Archangel Raphael. Um Ar what are the other two that you recognize?
Only Michael. [laughter] Oh, interesting. Okay. I love Raphael because he’s the healer. He sends us
healing energy. Um but yeah, I have a book that I must have left in Spain about the archangels
and how we can talk to them at any time. They’re here for us. They always say, “You don’t ask for help enough.
We need help.” Interesting. I know the mystics just the other dimensions say to us, we could
help you only if you ask. So ask for us for help. Is there a specific way to ask?
Just say I need help. I need help right now. I’ve been doing that recently because I’ve had some challenges and I
knew I needed help. And I get help from Mary Magdalena. And this is another one where the Bible has been mistransated
and and edited by men. And Mary Magdalena, as far as I understand, was is portrayed as a prostitute. Is that
what you’ve been brought up to believe? And she was actually Go ahead. Yes. But you know, in in the Da Vinci
Code, that was a [laughter] that was changed for for most Westerners.
Thank goodness. How was she portrayed? [gasps] Um the right hand of Jesus,
until I know. But in in in the Da Vinci Code, she’s she’s said to be the right hand of Jesus.
They they say the mystics say she not just the right hand. She was Jesus’s wife. She was his partner in every way
in every way that was necessary. And should I say she even had his children.
But the point is the point is that that was in the Da Vinci Code as well. Okay. Interesting. Okay. So I I speak to
Mary Magdalene and she was incredibly strong but compassionate and loving, very loving but strong woman and that’s
who I ask for help from these days and I get it. She gives it to me. But the point is believe it for help. There’s a
book that I think that you will like and it’s all about the lost book of Mary Magdalene. And there has been recent
findings within the past couple of years of some more documents that um have been
found uh that have are being translated that are very interesting. I’ll I’ll see
if I can find a link to that book. I heard I heard the authors talk recently about it and I found it really
interesting. Yep. Believe it already. Okay. I’ll I’ll link it. So, okay, we have we need the the article about the
fairy tales, uh the Martin Luther King quote and that book, right? Those are
links that we need to put up. Okay. Yeah. Okay. I would like to I think we’ve done it.
Yeah. And I would just like to end what we both take away from the story. Mine is I think it’s no secret. Mine is about
um Shaharazzad and how intellect triumphs over physical bru brutal force,
how compassion, cleverness um can conquer violence and revenge. And I
think we need to really um lean into that and what a heroine she was and is
for us. Yeah, I agree. I really think that she is representative of how stories can be
used for healing and for good. And that is what I think you and I really try
strive for on this podcast as a whole. Um because we we see that there’s so
much beauty even in the tragedy of these stories, right? There’s there’s so much
uh depth and complexity to these stories that we’re that we’re really trying to
uh highlight and show the the positive force of good for stories and
storytelling. Oh my goodness, Vanessa. Every time I think that we don’t need to do this anymore, you say something like that and
I think, oh my goodness, we need our listeners to hear more and more and more of this to change the world.
[laughter] That’s hopefully what we’re I think so encouraging. I think fairy tales can change the world. I I love that they are the
antithesis to war. Yes. So beautiful. All right. We’re going to quote that and please put that
in Facebook when you’re [laughter] working on this this podcast. All right.
Thank you so much everybody. All right listeners, we would love to hear your thoughts on the 101 Arabian
Knights and specifically the story that we’re covering, The Fisherman and the Jin. Have you read it? Are you
interested in reading it now? What was your take on this story? Um, we we want
to hear your questions that came up for you as you were reading it. And now I
need to I think reread it. I’m going to give it another chance. The whole thing?
Yeah, [laughter] the whole thing. In Spanish. Do it in Spanish. That’ll be even more fun.
Definitely not. [laughter] Definitely not. [gasps] Maybe after the third reading in
English, then I’ll do a Spanish. There we go. A Spanish version. [laughter] All right. Thanks so much for listening
to Fairy Tale Flip. Make sure you like and subscribe and comment and do all of
the things that help indie podcasts like ourselves to be found. Give us a review.
And we can’t wait to this do this with you again sometime soon. Until then,
keep the fairy tales alive. Bye.
